Naturalistic Paganism

Postpagan Ceremony & Ecology, by Glen Gordon: “Walking with Whitman”

The following is a small sermon given as part of a larger worship service with three others at the Unitarian Universalist Church of The Palouse in Moscow, Idaho on Sunday, January 27th, 2013.

One of the first poets I fell in love with was Walt Whitman. At 17, I remember wandering the bookstore in search of a literary craving I could not name. I passed the discounted classics, and a leatherbound copy of Leaves of Grass caught my attention. I thumbed through its gold leafed pages, mesmerized with the words flowing on the page. The first pages of “Song of Myself” captivated me as I mouthed the words to myself, flipping from page to page. To this day, the poem continues to have that effect on me. Whitman could articulate the submersion in the natural world as clearly as he experienced it.

In his day, Whitman’s poetry was considered scandalous for its sensual qualities. Yet, often ignored by scholars today is the religious message behind his poetry. Whitman’s intention was within the spirit of his times, when new religions where sprouting all around him. Leaves of Grass was deliberately written as an inspirational spiritual text, in as far as he mimics the poetic cadence of the Bible. He laid a poetic foundation for religion and spirituality that is grounded in the sacred of the everyday and merges the mystical with the scientific, without friction or contradiction, leaving both himself and his words as controversial today as when they where freshly written.

In my personal spiritual affirmations, I have a phrase, “One breath, one flesh, one soul.” In several key passages Whitman’s words reflect the meaning I attach to this affirmation. When he writes, “I celebrate myself, / And what I assume you shall assume, / For every atom belonging to me as good belongs to you”, I think about all matter being the collective physical manifestation of all creation as one flesh. Putting aside human perception, I question whether there is a distinct line where I begin and end or where the physical world around me begins and ends. I have often stopped while on a brisk walk to allow my senses to fully engage with the environment and feel lost in the landscape, feeling as though there are no barriers between me and the extended world.

Whitman continues, “My respiration and inspiration … the beating of my heart … the passing of blood and air through my lungs”. These words are filled with complete adoration for the act of breathing. From these words comes a sense of what I call “the one breath”, which is the atmosphere itself. With each breath of humans and animals and plants, the atmosphere is created and changed, being inhaled and exhaled, so that it becomes unclear where my breath ends and other’s begins. What I take inside me with each gasp of air belonged to and was inside something else. The unseen particles that float about me could have been anywhere and everywhere, and I take them in myself as a necessity of life.

When Whitman writes about God, it is not the anthropomorphic god of the Bible:

“I hear and behold God in every object, yet I understand God not in the least,
Nor do I understand who there can be more wonderful than myself.
Why should I wish to see God better than this day?
I see something of God each hour of the twenty four, and each moment then,
In the face of men and women I see God, and in my own face in the glass;
I find letters from God dropped in the street, and every one is signed by God’s name,
And I leave them where they are, for I know that others will punctually come forever and ever.”

This passage reveals a God that is all pervasive within the very fabric of creation and reality, and dwells within the narrator, the faces of those he meets, and in every aspect of the world around him. This is not much different than my own beliefs about the soul. I do not believe in individual souls or spirits that reside within people, unique to them and carrying the attributes of their personality into an afterlife. Instead, I perceive one soul that is at the core of all physical manifestations.

Whitman might relate my vision of the one soul to God. I tend to view it as life itself, an evolutionary impulse of creativity. In “Song of Myself,” Whitman mentions love as the unifying peace of creation, likening it to the support beam used to unite the keel and floorboards. He declares his love for many things and the whole of creation as a declaration of his own self love. This gives me a sense of love for self that is the one soul. The soul that is not myself is the soul that is is everything and everyone else but is still me.

Whitman’s elegant use of language describes what psychology calls a trans-personal experience, where distinction and identity of the self extend beyond the usual filters of our human perception — in layman terms, a mystical experience. As I continue reading the poem in its entirety, I get a sense for the same awe and wonderment I feel on the occasions where I allow myself to let go of preconceived perceptions and meld into the experience itself. From Whitman’s experience arises a poetry of complex theological thought that parallels my own beliefs in “one flesh, one breath, and one soul”. I could spend a lifetime exploring the nuances and subtleties in Walt Whitman’s poetry.

 

The Author

Glen Gordon was introduced to Paganism by friends while living overseas in Europe during the late 90′s. He underwent both Wiccan and Neodruidic training during his formative years, but had not self-identified as a Pagan when his path diverged into land-centered spiritual naturalism ten years ago. His focus has been on cultivating beneficial relationships with the natural living world surrounding him wherever he lives. During this time, he discovered Unitarian Universalism and has been active in his local congregations for many years. Since 2007, he has worked on varied projects regarding BioRegional Animism, including this 5 minute video, the words of which came from a short UU sermon he gave. He has spoken on the topic of ecology and the land on a few occasions for his local congregation and facilitated a now-disbanded group of UU Pagans and spiritual naturalists. In the past, he maintained the blog, Postpagan, and is excited to share some of that material at HumanisticPaganism. Currently, you can find Glen writing occasionally for No Unsacred Places and helping achieve Green sanctuary status for his beloved UU community, where he helps create and lead ecological aware earth- and land- focused ceremonies for the solstices and equinoxes.

See other Postpagan Ceremony & Ecology posts.

See Glen Gordon’s other posts.

“Charity: A naturalistic practice of offering” by B. T. Newberg

Philemon and Baucis, by Bramantino  (c. 1500)

As in the story of Philemon and Baucis, who hosted Zeus and Hermes in their home, giving to the figures of myth can enhance your life.

In the ancient world, gods and goddesses were honored with gifts. How can a naturalist carry on this tradition today?

One way it can be done is through giving to charities. For example, if you want to honor Demeter, goddess of grain, why not donate to your local food shelf? If Dionysus, god of wine, is your guest of honor, why not toast to him with a donation to Students Against Destructive Decisions? In this way, you can both honor the deity and make an immediate, concrete difference in the world.

Why mythologize charity?

Some may ask why myth and charity need to be paired. The short answer is they don’t, but doing so can have many benefits.

First, gifting is a natural way to develop relationships, well-documented in the animal world as well as across human cultures. So, if you are seeking to develop a relationship with a figure of myth, a natural way to further the bonding process is with a gift. Whether you relate to deities as symbols, archetypes, or some other naturalistic form, gifting can help develop relationships by recruiting our natural social bonding instincts. An offering in the form of a charitable donation appropriate to the deity is an excellent way to cultivate a relationship.

Second, we may intend to give to charities, but how often do we actually carry through? As Alain de Botton points out, we simply tend to forget. One way to remind yourself to do good is with a regular calendar of rituals. If each of your Wheel of the Year rituals involves some gift to charity, you will be reminded to spread the wealth at least eight times a year.

Third, charitable giving is a historically attested ancient Pagan practice. For an account of the ancient tradition of the euergetes, or benefactor, see Peter Brown’s Poverty and Leadership in the Later Roman Empire.

Finally, helping others has been scientifically shown to enhance happiness. So, if you are doing ritual anyway, why not add that extra bit of help to others? It makes ritual all the more meaningful.

How do I choose an appropriate charity?

You can start by asking: What does the deity in question care about? For further inspiration, HP has compiled extensive lists of charities organized by deity.

So far, we have five pantheons:

Don’t see your favorite pantheon? Then create it, and share it with the rest of us!

Check out all the Charities by Deity pages, and leave comments with your ideas of new charities. Thanks for your help!

About B. T. Newberg

B. T. Newberg

B. T. Newberg

B. T. founded HumanisticPaganism.com in 2011, and served as managing editor till 2013.  His writings on naturalistic spirituality can be found at PatheosPagan Square, the Spiritual Naturalist Society, as well as right here on HP.  Since the year 2000, he has been practicing meditation and ritual from a naturalistic perspective.  After leaving the Lutheranism of his raising, he experimented with Agnosticism, Buddhism, Contemporary Paganism, and Spiritual Humanism.  Currently he combines the latter two into a dynamic path embracing both science and myth.  He headed the Google Group Polytheist Charity, and organized the international interfaith event The Genocide Prevention Ritual.

In 2009, he completed a 365-day challenge recorded at One Good Deed Per Day.  As a Pagan, he has published frequently at The Witch’s Voice as well as Oak Leaves and the podcast Tribeways, and has written a book on the ritual order of Druid organization Ar nDriocht Fein called Ancient Symbols, Modern Rites.  Several of his ebooks sell at GoodReads.com, including a volume of creative nonfiction set in Malaysia called Love and the Ghosts of Mount Kinabalu.

Professionally, he teaches English as a Second Language.  He also researches the relation between religion, psychology, and evolution at www.BTNewberg.com.  After living in Minnesota, England, Malaysia, Japan, and South Korea, B. T. Newberg currently resides in St Paul, Minnesota, with his wife and cat.

B. T. currently serves as the treasurer and advising editor for HP.

See B. T. Newberg’s other posts.

“Top 10 signs of good spirituality” by DT Strain

This essay was first published at The Humanist Contemplative.

Over the course of my comparative studies, there are some general traits I’ve noticed which seem to be shared between those wisdom streams and I thought it could be helpful to point them out. Here are some traits that are a sign of a good and healthy spiritual path…

10) Aim of True Happiness

Good spirituality will have as its aim the happiness of the practitioner. Of course, deep understanding of what this entails is essential. By ‘True Happiness’ we mean something more than mere pleasure associated with one’s conditions. Rather, the kind of happiness a good spirituality will pursue will be a deeper sense of contentment that transcends circumstance. It will be a source of inner strength in the face of adversity and humble appreciation in the face of fortune. Such a happiness is also not selfish in the shallow sense of the word, in that the practitioner will come to see that mere self interest is not always a path to it.

9) Humble approach to knowledge

A good spirituality will engender humility in the practitioner when it comes to beliefs. It will produce a practitioner that is careful about making claims that cannot be substantiated. The practitioner will appreciate their limitations as a human being, not assuming they have more ability to ‘know’ things than they do. They would learn to be comfortable with a state of ‘not knowing’ all things. Such an approach will guide the practitioner in their own assumptions, as well as in accepting the claims of others without good reason. A good spiritual path will encourage doubt, asking questions, etc. It will not encourage the practitioner to accept claims on the basis of authority, or tradition, or faith, or any other means than good sense and self experience. But at the same time, this principle will not be one that encourages the practitioner to spend their time telling others what they should or shouldn’t believe. Rather, its focus will be on helping the practitioner in their own walk.

8) Holistic, not dualistic

A good spirituality will inspire appreciation of the interconnectedness of all things. Dualistic thinking, whether it comes to nature, ourselves, us/them mentalities, and so on, will be anathema to a sound spirituality. Such a spiritual path will, in part, help to guide the practitioner to operate more effectively in an interconnected universe; appreciating subtle cause and effect, and acting more wisely in such a system. This ‘skillful means’ will be a way for the practitioner to see the big picture – to handle the complexities of life more like a surfer on ever-changing waves, moving in a dance with the universe, rather than stubbornly trying to move against the grain.

7) Acceptance of impermanence

The ever-changing flux of the universe, and the impermanence in which that results, has always been obvious to any observer. Nearly all worldviews, philosophies, traditions, or religions can be grouped into two categories regarding how they handle impermanence. One group will try to claim that there really is some permanent phenomenon to which we can attach our hopes and secure our philosophy (an afterlife, a deity, a ‘salvation’, magic powers, etc). While this may or may not be true, #9 (a humble approach to knowledge) suggests that we cannot know for certain whether it is. For that reason, a good spirituality will belong to the second category, which instead helps the practitioner to come to terms with impermanence; to accept it and learn to live effectively and happily in an impermanent universe. Spirituality, at its best, even helps to grow a sense of awe and wonder at such a grand flux, as we come to realize that impermanence means not merely death, but birth as well, and makes possible everything we love and experience.

6) Motivation-focused, not consequentialism

While much philosophy is often concerned with elaborate logical models to define the ethical, based on actions, consequences, and outward results, a good spirituality will know the limitations of these approaches. In the face of highly complex situations we rarely know all the variables, let alone their values and the results of our actions. But a good spirituality will emphasize the importance of good motivation on behalf of the practitioner. It will direct the practitioner to that inner motivation in all actions. Surely, it is important to use our reason as best we can to take responsible action, but in the end, if we have good motivation and take that due diligence, outcomes are not entirely within our say, as the rest of the universe will play its part as well. A good spirituality engenders a deep appreciation and intuitive-level knowledge of that truth. In this way, our deeper happiness in life begins to divorce itself from circumstantial outcomes.

5) Practice-centered

A good spirituality will be more than merely intellectual teachings or academic philosophy or a ‘world view’. It will not be merely centered on intellectual assent to a certain set of beliefs. Rather, its true power will be in its practice. That is, it will be a system of disciplines one can apply and become more skillful at over time. Its wisdom and its practices will be integrated and support one another. In this way, one’s spirituality will not merely be a label – it will be an activity; and the practitioner will have a sense of making continual progress, day by day, as they walk that path.

4) Changing self instead of others or the world

A legitimately spiritual person will certainly be found taking positive action to help others and help make positive change in the world, but these are merely symptoms of the spiritual life. A good spirituality will help the practitioner always to focus on changing what they have the most capacity to change: the person in the mirror. Understanding that we live in an impermanent and interconnected world, the practitioner will understand that all of their efforts may or may not come to fruition. Therefore, a good spirituality will help us to change our focus from “I must change the world” to, “I must be the kind of person that seeks positive change in the world”. Thus, when we adopt this focus we have already succeeded, regardless of outcomes. This focus not only helps against ‘burn out’ in activist efforts, but it helps us avoid the pitfalls of focusing too much on how others ought to be acting without tending to our own shortcomings.

3) Transcending the ego

A sign of a poor spirituality will be that it coddles the practitioner and makes all things about them. Perhaps it promises wish fulfillment and certain externals such as wealth, health, reputation, etc. It fools us into thinking we have more control than we do. These claims to empower the practitioner appeal to the practitioner’s shallow and mundane self interests and reinforce the ego. A good spirituality will be ego-busting. It will help to free the practitioner from the prison of the ego, expanding one’s sense of self  and concern outward to include others. Only through such a liberation from the ego can we begin to see what had been consuming distress for what it is, and begin to know a larger world. Healthy spiritual paths will help us in this process.

2) Wisdom, not -ism

Good spirituality will not be about labels, or a particular people or culture, or particular brands, or personalities. It will inspire the practitioner to seek out and respect wise notions and practices wherever they can be found. It will not inspire the practitioner to defend their ‘ism’ as though holding a flag, but rather to seek truth first with an open mind. Such a practitioner will not care too much whether this or that is considered a religion by some or a philosophy by others, or what titles by which they may or may not be called. They will be adept at exchanging lexicons to suit the context and the conversant, keeping in mind the meaning behind that language as what is important. They will not turn away from certain sources because of bias, ignorance, or reactionary tendencies. Good spirituality encourages the practitioner not to form attachments to the trappings of its own form.

1) Compassion as foundation

Most importantly, a good spirituality will have compassion at its core. Even the pursuit of truth is only worthwhile because of the good it makes possible for all people and is thus secondary to compassion. Good spirituality will help to expand one’s sense of empathy and compassion, ultimately toward all beings. It will teach forgiveness and reject retributive approaches toward dealing with human conflict. Even when action against others is necessary, it will help the practitioner maintain compassion even for enemies. A good spirituality will reject the notion that compassion and pragmatism are at odds – that the virtuous and the advantageous can be exclusive to one another. Ultimately, the practitioner of a good spiritual path will come toward greater perception that virtue (including compassion) and wisdom are synonymous.

About DT Strain

Rev. Strain speaks and writes on a wide variety of philosophic concepts and participates in several organizations. His “Humanist Contemplative” group and concept has since helped inspire a similar group at Harvard University. He is former president of the Humanists of Houston (HOH), and has served as vice-chair on the Executive Council of AHA’s Chapter Assembly, on the Education Committee of the Kochhar Humanist Education Center, and as a member of the Stoic Council at New Stoa.DT is a Humanist Minister, certified by the American Humanist Association (AHA) and a Spiritual Naturalist. He is the founder and director of the Spiritual Naturalist Society.

His writing appears in the Houston Chronicle and has been published in magazines, newsletters, and in the AHA national publication “Essays in the Philosophy of Humanism”. He has been a guest speaker on the Philosophy of Religion panel discussion at San Jacinto College, and has appeared on the Houston PBS television program, The Connection, discussing religious belief and non-belief. DT Strain is an enthusiast of Stoicism, Buddhism, and other ancient philosophies; seeking to supplement modern scientific and humanistic values with these practices. His essays and blog can be found at www.HumanistContemplative.org.

See DT Strain’s other posts.

 

What to look forward to in June at HP

Our early summer theme here at HP is “Intellect”. Beginning with the summer solstice in June, we will discuss what role intellect played in our coming to Naturalistic Paganism, what role it continues to play, how we make intellect serve wonder, and what constructive role intellectual inquiry plays in our Naturalistic Paganism. Send your submissions to humanisticpaganism [at] gmail [dot] com.

This Month at HP

June 1  “Parable of an Atheist at a Temple” by Trent Fowler

June 4  “10 Signs of a Good Spirituality” by DT Strain

June 6  “Charity, a Naturalistic Practice” by B. T. Newberg

June 8  Postpagan Ceremony & Ecology by Glen Gordon

June 11  Starstuff, Contemplating by Jon Cleland Host

June 14  Mid-Month Meditation

June 15  Musings of a Pagan Mythicist by Maggie Jay Lee

June 18  A Pedagogy of Gaia by Bart Everson: “Flowers to Flame”

June 21  Summer Solstice

June 22  The Wheel of Evolution by Eric Steinhart: Litha

June 29  “Four strategies for naturalizing religion” by David Chapman

Humanistic Paganism Calendar for June

Jun 5  World Environment Day

Jun 8  World Oceans Day

Jun 20  World Refugee Day

Jun 20-21  Summer solstice (summer begins in U.S.) / Neo-Pagan summer quarter day (Litha) and Wold Humanist Day

Jun 26  Julian, the last pagan emperor’s birthday

Jun 26  Anniversary of the U.S. Supreme Court same-sex equal rights cases

“Living The Path: Sacred Acts Everyone Can Perform” by Carolina Gonzalez

This essay was originally published in Carolina’s newsletter and then at as a guest post at PaganSquare.com.

One of the questions I get asked more often from our customers is “I want to have a Spiritual Path – how do I start?” – well, the answer couldn’t be simpler: Living It Every Single Day. Entwining your everyday life with a set of regular devotional practices will gradually increase and empower your energy, connect you with the energies and entities around you, ground you, and build the Personal Power you will need to have efficient results on more demanding practices like Spell Work.

There is something I would like to explain before we go on with the practices – while I am practising my path every single moment of the day, I do not live surrounded by Pagans and I do not speak of my path unless someone asks me. While clearly I am not in the broom closet, I am a very private person, and the Canary Islands is a place where 99% of the population are Roman Catholics – not extremely devoted Catholics, but certainly people who still cringe at the word Witch. The social stigma of what I do has caused rejection, misunderstandings, prejudice, ridicule and fear in my life.

I use all of these practices in my daily life, and I don’t consider them to be below the more obvious magical practices like Spirit Work – actually, one of the heaviest prejudices most beginners have is that there is a difference between Life and Path. There isn’t – you life and your path should be one and the same. Even if I never performed another spell in my entire life, just by keeping these simple practices I would still be a Witch, and I will still be connected to Spirit just the same.

Let me give you a very clear example of this – the woman whom is today my best friend and sister is a Witch, and has been my apprentice for eight years; a very informal apprentice I have to say, because our personal relationship has always been way more important than our magical one. When I met her, she asked me repeatedly to teach her Magic (and for that, she meant spells) and I always said NO. Of course, this frustrated her very much, but since as I said our personal relationship was absolutely wonderful, eventually she accepted it and stopped asking for it.

How can you say that she was your apprentice, then? – you may ask. Well, because what I tried to teach her was to be more compassionate, more aware, more open, more receptive, less judging, less negative, more responsible, more self-sufficient. Because, in my opinion, THAT is what makes a Witch. Her personal choices about making spells (or not), or about which pantheon to worship (if any), are not my business and do not matter at all to me. What mattered to me was that the wonderful, empowered, magical woman I saw in her could bloom completely and leave self-inflicted pain, bitterness and negativity behind.

And, what happened was that, almost without noticing it, and without teaching her more than a few simple spells for specific situations, and certainly not more complex spells than the ones you can find at my blog, she actually became a Witch. She started connecting with her environment deeply and fully; she showed compassion and balance when no-one around her had it; she faced her demons and conquered them; she became one with Spirit. She has found her own way to her own magic, her own voice, her own unique path – HER OWN. And now, no-one can take that away from her.

There was another reason to write this article – all the practices presented in it can be performed by Pagans who are in the broom closet. You can have a constant and active practise even in the more hostile of environments, because none of the ones you will read after this introduction requires you to be chanting spells or wearing cloaks – not that there is anything wrong with chanting spells or wearing cloaks, but not everyone has the understanding of family and/or friends, and many Pagans, specially those with children, have to leave their faith aside in order to keep the peace at home.

The Practices

Making Tea Have you ever seen a Japanese Tea Ceremony? If not, I strongly recommend you google it or look for it on YouTube. Heating water and adding tea or herbs to it is something that can be done every day, among every kind of people, even at the workplace; and no-one has to know that you have Blessed the Water, or that you are honouring your ally plant Spirits as you brew it. If you serve it to others, cast a silent Blessing over the tea before serving it.

Bathing/Swimming either in your own bathtub, or at the sea/river/lake, submerging yourself in water is an extremely powerful magical act. Before entering the water, thank the Water Spirits; when you are in it, visualize how it cleanses you and fills you with energy; as you leave it, thank the Water Spirits for taking your negative energy and cleansing you.

Using The Symbolism Of Numbers And Colours wearing the colours of your patron Deity/Spirit, choosing a specific number of elements to adorn your work table, or painting your room, can also be very powerful allies, specially to keep your energy aligned with a particular Spirit.

Leaving Hidden Offerings the whole world is your altar, and you don’t need to have one at home (unless you want to, of course). My husband, for example, always carries a small purse filled with pennies on his backpack, and leaves them at crossroads here and there as he does his daily errands; I collect the candies that the local cafeteria gives with every tea, and when I have a handful I take them to an abandoned cemetery for the people buried there. Even feeding the birds at your local park can be an offering to Bird Spirits/Deities.

Meditation And Prayer you can meditate and/or pray absolutely everywhere – on your way to work, as you walk the dog, while you wait for your children in the car, when you take a break from work/study – and no-one has to know you’re doing it.

Connecting With A Place Of Power even in the most urban environment, there must be a place that you feel attracted to, where you feel a special, empowering energy. USE it regularly as a way to refocus, ground and recharge your energies, as often as you can/want.

Eating And Shopping Consciously you are what you eat, and your energy and power depend on that more than you can imagine. Even with the most limited budget (and I know that well, because that is my own budget) you can still make choices, and do your best to improve that choices gradually. Eating locally, seasonally and frugally is not nearly as expensive as they make you think, and your body and mind will change to levels you have never experienced.

Work With Your Hands spinning, knitting, making jewelry, painting, collage, journaling, woodworking, carpentry, and even less (allegedly) glamorous works like home repairs are a more powerful tool for a Witch than you could think. The creative process, applied to any skill, will not only release many emotions, but it can also be efficiently used to map your insecurities, fears, and of course your strengths. Use your hands as the wonderful tools they are for manifestation work by creating beauty and usefulness.

Plant Stuff – at your home or outdoors (as in guerrilla gardening, for example), gardening is a tremendously empowering experience at all levels. My advice is to start with easy to grow herbs like Basil (or your local equivalent) and get seedlings from your farmer’s market instead of growing herbs from seed, which is much more difficult. Plant Spirits teach us, transform us, heal us and protect us.

Move Yourself walk, dance, sing, have sex, run, play sports. Your Spirit and its energy depend on the amount of healthy exercise you make more than you could think. Just as with eating in a more conscious way, any kind of exercise you do, no matter your age or physical state, will empower you and connect your energy with Spirit. This is not about weight loss goals, or about killing yourself – quite the opposite; this is about loving and honouring your body to increase its ability to become a receptor and transmitter of Healing.

GIVE whether it is just listening to someone in distress and giving advice, or volunteering at your chosen charity, the sacrifice of your time and energy is a tremendously powerful magical tool; as you compassion is put into action, you will be performing a spell of self-Blessing, attracting beneficial energy and entities your way.

The Author

Carolina Gonzalez

I am the owner of Camino De Yara, a website+blog+shop dedicated to offer information, services and handmade spiritual items about Maria Lionza’s cult, a mixture of Spiritism and Animism born in Venezuela, a country I’m deeply tied to. I have been reading Tarot for 24 years, and working as an independent, self-employed Spiritual Worker for almost 20. I am also a guest blogger for Pagan Square, and an ordained minister of the ULC.