Naturalistic Paganism

Etiquette for interfaith discussions, by Thalassa

Editor’s note:  In light of the conflagration ignited by last week’s post, a few words seem in order. 

The fact that the piece had such reverberations throughout the Pagan community seems a sign that HP has grown, enough that we now have readers extending far beyond the naturalist community.  Thus, we naturalists cannot speak as if only speaking to each other anymore (if we ever could).  In point of fact, M. J.’s post was originally posted to an email list comprised only of naturalists.  But by bringing it to the HP blog, the audience changed and the piece changed along with it.  As editor, I take responsibility for publishing the piece, indeed for encouraging M. J. to publish it, as well as for the choice of image.

Recently Star Foster organized a Live Pagan Hangout on active tolerance, in which many good things were said.  Crystal Blanton‘s comments stood out most to me: “We spend so much time defining our path that we can get lost in other people’s paths.”  She also said: “We need to be able to speak up about the expectation of respect for one another, and when we do it – and here’s the key – we need to be sure we’re also doing it with respect.”

To help move in the right direction, Thalassa has graciously let us repost her pointers on interfaith sensitivity, originally published at Musings of a Kitchen Witch.  Numbers 8, 9, and 10 seem most apropos at the moment. – B. T. Newberg

Respect bumber sticker

With much help from (and much thanks to) the folks at the Pagan Forum and CafeMom’s Religious Debate section for their constructive ideas, I’ve been working on list of behaviors and attitudes to reduce conflict over religious beliefs between individuals.  Think of this as Miss Manners putting the smackdown on multi-faith and interfaith discussions and debates!

Thalassa’s Etiquette Guidelines for Interfaith Discussion

  1. If someone asks about your religious beliefs, share (respectfully and with compassion). If they don’t ask, don’t assume that sharing will be welcome and go out of your way to do so.
  2. If you feel compelled to ask someone else as a way to spark a discussion about their beliefs, back off if they aren’t interested.
  3. Make sure the setting is appropriate for the discussion so neither party will feel uncomfortable.
  4. Don’t act like your truth is everyone’s truth–it isn’t, because if it were, there wouldn’t be a conversation on the matter. When expressing your beliefs, use I-statements to express your personal beliefs.
  5. Refrain from using absolute or exclusive language, but don’t assume that absolute or exclusive statements are made with negative intent.
  6. If you are in a mutual discussion of beliefs, don’t use your theological opinion as a tool for condemnation or insult.
  7. Realize that the people who vocally use their beliefs about religion as an excuse to be a jerk are louder than those that don’t, if you want to be a good ambassador for your faith, act your ideals, and even share them, but don’t preach them.
  8. Language is imprecise–different religions and denominations have differing terminology; understand the limits of your religious literacy and ask for clarification if you are unsure of one’s meaning.
  9. Disagreement is not an automatic insult or attack. Try to refrain from taking offense to comments that may be well-intended, but poorly phrased.
  10. Courteously and constructively correct misinformation. Do not get drawn into an argument (as opposed to a debate). Be polite, even when the other person is not.
  11. If things start going badly, be the adult and back off. When this happens, don’t wait for the other person – do it first. If you are a person that has to have the last word, remember that walking away with dignity while the other person brays like an ass is its own last word.

About the author

Thalassa:  I’m a (occasionally) doting wife, damn proud momma of two adorable children, veteran of the United States Navy, part-time steampunk hausfrau, a beach addict from middle America, Civil War reenactor and Victorian natural history aficionado, a canoeing fanatic, Unitarian Universalist and pantheistic Pagan,and a kitchen witch and devotee of various aquatic deities.

Upcoming work

This Sunday: Double Feature

In light of last week’s controversy, this week we review some basic interfaith pointers with Thalassa.

Etiquette for interfaith discussions, by Thalassa

Appearing Sunday, June 10, 2012

B. T. Newberg

This is the second in the series integrating Loyal Rue’s work.  This time I need your help to discover is what functions as our root metaphor.

What are our root metaphors?, by B. T. Newberg

Appearing Sunday, June 10, 2012

Next Sunday

Alison Leigh Lily

Alison Leigh Lily, of No Unsacred Place and the new podcast Faith, Fern & Compass, illucidates issues facing the Contemporary Pagan community.

Sustainable Pagan communities: An interview with Alison Leigh Lily

Appearing Sunday, June 17, 2012

Recent Work

Why do people want supernatural gods?, by M. J. Lee

Seton Setting: Something special may happen, by Thomas Schenk

Managing human nature: A job description for HP, by B. T. Newberg

Get our ebooks

B. T. Newberg ebooks

Transit of Venus

Transit of Venus

The dot toward the bottom of the sun is the planet Venus.

 

Today, Venus will pass between the Earth and the Sun.  This event only happens twice every 120 years.  The transit begins at 3:06 p.m. and lasts for roughly 6.5 hours.

Prof. Adrienne Cool says in an SFSU article:

“It instantaneously gives you this sense of scale,” Cool said. “Venus is about the size of the Earth, and we’re going to see it as this tiny dot crossing the sun. It’s humbling and fun to see that directly.”

The article continues:

First observed in 1639, astronomers realized they could measure the solar system by timing the transit from various locations on Earth, comparing differences in timing at those locations to measure the distance of Venus and Earth from the sun, and then applying those measurements to already-known relative distances of the planets.

Why do people want supernatural gods?, by M. J. Lee

Athena Barbie Doll

“When the gods are conceived as supernatural people… meaning is lost.”

I hate to admit it but I do feel some animosity toward hard polytheists. I feel as if they have stolen the gods (which of course belong neither to me nor to them, but to their own time and place).

The gods have meaning precisely because they are symbols, symbols of the power, the mystery of life, of nature, of the world. When the gods are conceived as supernatural people this meaning is lost.

A literal view of the gods has all the intellectual problems of the Christian gods (and I do mean gods, plural – Christians are only monotheists because they re-defined god, which for the ancient Greeks theo meant “deathless”). If the world is full of enlightened superbeings, why isn’t it more obvious? The gods as superbeings come off seeming un-god-like, small, weak and insignificant. Even if they do exist, I don’t see why we should care.

I just don’t get it, and that is the question that needs to be answered. Why do people want supernatural gods?

Are personified symbols to blame?

I don’t think people create or turn to supernatural beings because they have been befuddled by the use of personified symbols. It is not the symbol that is the cause, it is the need.

I think if religious naturalism can truly meet our instinctual needs, the needs religion traditionally addressed, then it will grow and supernaturalism will decrease; if not, then humans will continue to find new and ingenious ways to justify supernaturalism and supernaturalism will grow (with or without personified symbols).

I think there is good evidence that the rise of supernatural literalism in paganism and Christianity is not a return to traditional religion but is a reaction to our societal problems, our disconnected, fast-paced, de-humanized world (see Karen Armstrong’s book “The Case for God” and On Being’s (formally Speaking of Faith) interview with religious historian Martin Marty).

Is nature too hard to love?

Naturalistic earth/nature-centered religion faces a lot of challenges. For many people, nature is just not a suitable object of reverence; nature is just not god-like.

We are taught that nature is like a machine. It is an object without will, without purpose, and without consciousness (for many people, saying that nature has consciousness and we are it is not satisfying).

For many modern urbanites, nature is not really awe-inspiring. We do not feel fear and trembling in the face of the great power of nature. We rarely feel vulnerable in nature (unless we seek this out by putting ourselves in remote and dangerous situations). Our survival and happiness is seen as depending on human ingenuity or perhaps God’s will, but certainly not on the “will” of nature.

Many Christians feel it is inappropriate to express thanks and gratitude toward nature.  Since nature has no will, it cannot really “give” us anything (they are of course strongly against any form of personification of nature, especially with religious connotations).

More important than being intellectually satisfying, religion needs to be emotionally satisfying. I wonder if nature can really fulfill our emotional needs without some level of personification. To call nature our Mother is to personify nature, to make an analogy between human mothers and the earth (see the discussion in response to Rua Lupa’s “Understanding word use and how science relates to myth and religion“).

What we stand to lose

Given our culture, I can understand why some people are very skeptical about using myth and mythic symbols in religious naturalism. Myth is a very powerful technique for “writing on the tablet of the heart” as David M. Carr puts it, for conveying meaning, values and even information so important we should never forget it.

Yet, the symbols and metaphors of myth are only meaningful if everyone understands what they are referring to. If everyone in our culture insists that myths and the characters in myths must be taken literally (so that myth is judged as true or false history/science, not as true or false metaphor), then we will not be able to use myth or mythic symbols, and I think our religion will be diminished for it.

The author

M. J. Lee

Maggie Jay Lee lives in west Tennessee with her husband, cat and two
dogs. When she is not working as an environmental consultant, she likes to spend
her time enjoying nature, dancing and learning about this strange, beautiful world.
Maggie is a naturalistic pagan with a particular interest in ancient Greek religion.

Check out Maggie Jay Lee’s other post:

Upcoming work

This Sunday

M. J. Lee

Are hard polytheists stealing the gods?  And if so, what do we stand to lose?

Why do people want supernatural gods?, by Maggie Jay Lee

Appearing Sunday, June 3, 2012

Next Sunday

B. T. Newberg

This is the second in the series integrating Loyal Rue’s work.  This time I need your help: what could function as our root metaphor?

Nature: A root metaphor for HP?, by B. T. Newberg

Appearing Sunday, June 10, 2012

Recent Work

Seton Setting: Something special may happen, by Thomas Schenk

Managing human nature: A job description for HP, by B. T. Newberg

The impossibility of atheism, by Bart Everson

Get our ebooks

B. T. Newberg ebooks